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FaceBook Cont’d…

I wanted to continue this discussion on my Blog page instead of running it 422 feet down the Facebook page! Please continue to post your thoughts on this…very interesting!


Categories: Opinion
  1. Wally
    October 27, 2009 at 14:33

    First to Doyle. No argument that we have lots of problems with our economy here and I totally agree with you and Schumpeter that democracies will ruin themselves by voting short term money and favors to themselves.

    I’ll also agree that Hitler wasn’t lucky on the whole. He knew very well what he was doing and how to do it. He capitalized on the moment. His only luck was to live where he did during that time. He was an Outlier as Gladwell would put it. I also agree that it was not a bubble. The economy had crashed and it was building itself out naturally although not necessarily as a true free market.

    Now about this Fascism thing. First off, what is your definition of Fascism and are you advocating Fascism as a political system or purely in the economic sense, or are you merely arguing to use Fascist techniques as you said? There are big differences depending on your answer and I’m interested to see where you’re coming from.

    For now I’ll just address the problems I see with Fascism in general as a political system.

    For one, it requires a great deal of Nationalism. That’s a big problem today from both a political and economic perspective. You just can’t get away with it like you used to. The economy is truly global and it benefits most those who are open and collaborate.

    You can’t raise Nationalist policies without suffering the consequences. At least not to the degree you would need to make a difference. Sure, it’s done by most nations to one degree or another but only to the extent they have economic leverage. The US is in nearly the worst possible position to be doing this. We have very little economic leverage and what we have (the dollar) is seriously threatened.

    Along with that, Nationalism typically requires an “enemy” of some sort, foreign or domestic. We can’t afford to start another war and I don’t want to even consider choosing an enemy from within. Who will it be? Illegal Aliens? Conservative Christians? People with blue eyes?

    Politicians would seem the only reasonable choice but they’re the ones driving this bus. Witness the Tea Parties this year to get a feel for Nationalism.

    Second, Fascism requires Authoritarianism. Without it, you can’t accomplish Fascism any more than you can make every person go the exact speed limit. I know I don’t want to live under those conditions. I don’t know who would except those who dole out the requisite authority. I guess that’s why Fascism always involves a Dictator.

    From an economic standpoint it can run the gamut from Capitalism with Nationalist policies to basically a Socialist structure. Granted, most Fascists wouldn’t achieve Marxism but still, one way or another you’re trying to impose some serious management on the economy. That’s an incredibly hard thing to do especially considering the number of players in the global economy. Again, you’ll be left out in the cold unless you have serious leverage.

    In the end, Fascism has traditionally been used strictly to pander to the masses. Typically just magnifying whatever the populist ideas of the time are for the sole purpose of gaining power. In economic terms that’s called a “Bad Outcome” I believe 🙂

    What parts of Fascism do you see as positive? Maybe you’re a fan of Neitzsche?

    Now to Matt. Funny you should mention morals. That’s kind of a key component to why the US has done so well economically and politically for so long. The overriding Judeo Christian values that were the backbone of the formation of our country were actually part of our culture for a long time. Now that you see that waning you also see our society and economy deteriorating. Not a coincidence.

    As for no government intervention, you must have a little government regulation for capitalism. It also helps to have a morality that favors justice with regards to individual rights and freedoms. In other words, you need a legal system and for the majority of people participating in the system to play by the rules. Doyle said essentially the same thing with the drawback of capitalism being fraud.

    Too little of either and you’ll have an unfair balance. That leads to the popular majority thinking it’s unfair and voting for socialist policies in order to make it “more fair”, whatever that is.

    Politicians will happily cater to this request in exchange for more power. Then after awhile the militant among us will get sick and tired of not having any freedom (or at least the freedoms that they want) because of Fascism and they’ll overthrow the government in bloody fashion.

    At that point you either get a different Fascism or Anarchy (also known as pure democracy). You can probably see where we’re headed……

    At least that’s my opinion. You’re welcome to your own because I’m not a Fascist 🙂

  2. doyle turner
    October 27, 2009 at 19:47

    Wally, I am definitely not a facist, and I am only referring to the economic policies. You are absolutely right on the nationalism issue being a drawback to fascism and our Judeo Christian beliefs being a huge part of our past success.

    I think we would both agree that our country needs to return to more capitalism rather then less. There is one huge problem with doing that in this global economy. While you return to capitalism it leaves your markets extremely exposed to other economies that are both managed by their government and also better capitalized. I’ll give you an example, after the fall of the Soviet Union I had an opportunity to meet a man who ran an international mutual fund in which you had to have $1billion in order to join. This fund was buying grain facilities and slaughter houses in the former Soviet Union and then buying the corresponding commodities for 10 to 15 cents on the dollar and selling them abroad for full market value. He was then taking the profit and reinvesting in Chineese agriculture. At first blush this appears to simply be good capitalistic policy, however, these were commodities that the Russian people needed to live, people were literally starving because their natural resources were being raped out of their country. That is not what capitalism is about.

    We are entering a period that is starting to resemble the former Soviet Union. Our government has subsidized the sale of grain to other countries while at the same time subidizing the ethanol industry (large oil) which has nearly collapsed the livestock industry in this country. To give you an idea, the beef industry is 17% of the GDP. With the dollar’s continual decline it will continue to get more difficult for Americans to buy their own food while foreign nations will find it continually easier. Then as an added twist, food and fuel aren’t even part of the calculation for inflation.

    The trade deficit and our government’s debt are our two largest most looming issues at this time. We need to do like Hitler and default on the debt just like he did on the reporation payments to France. Replace our currency with one backed by multiple commodities such as precious metals grains whatever. Now for the real wild part, we place a stiff tax on all exports of raw materials, in other words any thing that is exported must already have value added to it, this will create jobs. This country has to learn that you can not get ahead by selling wholesale and buying retail.

    Our current policy is to subsidize production until we overporduce, then subsidize the sale of the production to other nations in order to dump it on the world market thus depleting the value of what we produce in the first place requiring more subsidy. This does a real good job of increasing the national debt, other than that it is just foolish. The fascist idea is to set mandatory prices with a profit margin built in for the producer, the theory is that with the price being stable, the highest quality product will sell first, forcing out the lower quality, over production is elliminated because the price isn’t lowered in order to move the product. This is where the black market always comes into play.

    Sorry to do all this rambling, I’ve had a lot of interruptions, it’s my belief that you can use fascist economic policies to protect an economy that you are trying to move to capitalism, there has to be government controls of all economic systems other wise there is no need for government at all.

  3. lloyd69
    October 27, 2009 at 20:42

    Okay, smart guys. How are we going to get there from here? What’s it going to take? There is so much apathy right now and hopelessness out there. And right here for that matter! You have ignorant people running government hell bent on holding and keeping power and a full out assault on the before mentioned Judeo-Christian values that are left in this country…

  4. doyle turner
    October 28, 2009 at 00:44

    I’m affraid it has to get so bad that we basicly have a revolution to restore our gov’t back to the people. When the people finally realize what our politicians have done, the gutters of DC will run red with their blood. Thomas Jefferson said, “… the common man should from time to time, kill the bauwazee(spelling is wrong I know) if for no other reason than to prove that he is willing to do it.” Not an exact quote but close.

    I don’t like being that negative but the powers that be are very intrenched. The sad part is that they sold us down the tube for so little. At least Judas got paid in silver not worthless paper.

    I think the key is to figure out how to prosper during these times, if we are going to change things it’s going to take a lot of money and influence in order to get things done. There is always opportunity, that’s the great thing about a capitalist system.

    Campaign reform is another very important key to straightening this mess out, really simple, if you can’t vote in the election, you can’t give money to the campaign. Campaigns should have to pay taxes and contributions should never be deductible.

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